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Post by Ted on Oct 7, 2012 19:00:42 GMT -8
I posted this question on KDP community and got a reply that I felt our members should read:
"You may use the fonts that are licensed--not to you, but to the company that owns the operating system for your computer (Microsoft, Apple, etc.) for your personal use, not really commercial use. You may use a font licensed to your OS Company for commercial use for so long as you are not redistributing the font. Unfortunately, in eBooks, you are actually redistributing the font, once you elect to use a font that is not a default font on the device (for which distribution is intended). If you choose to use Bookman OldStyle, for example, you have to license the font if it is not on the Kindle (or Nook, iBooks--wherever the book is going) as a default.
If you use Arial, Times New Roman or Courier, you're generally safe. if you use any Adobe font, you're not, period. You should always check the license status of a font by checking with fonts.com or other reliable font purveryors. Most fonts are NOT free, despite what people cavalierly think, and most require licensing not only for the main font, but for oblique, bold, etc., so using a "single font" can require 3, 4 or more licenses. Again, this pertains to eBooks only (including PDF's, depending upon how the PDF is made) because you are actually redistributing a copy of the entire font file when you sell (or give away) the book in question. For a font to work in an ebook, the font file has to be actually included (like an image, as an example) for the font to work. Thus, it's being redistributed. (n.b.: companies like mine will "obfuscate" fonts that are included in an ebook to assist in keeping the font non-distributed, but MOBI books can't be made from a file with an already-obfuscated font, so...licensing it is.)
Print requirements are different, but generally require that the print designer have the font licensed, e.g., Createspace or whichever company you use. Remember, just like your books, fonts are intellectual property and subject to copyright, no different than any other intellectual property."
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Post by Ted on Oct 8, 2012 6:41:45 GMT -8
My last post (hopefully) on the font issue: On PC's, open your C drive, look for the Windows folder and open it and scroll down to the folder named Fonts. Open your Fonts folder on your computer and right-click on a font and choose Properties. With the Properties window open choose the Details tab. Look for the word "Font embeddability". Next to that line will be the use for that font, which in most cases says "Editable". According to Microsoft there are four permissions for True Type fonts (Note that this refers to True Type fonts and not Open Type fonts), with 'Editable" meaning "Editable fonts can be used to make changes to the document in which the font is embedded, but cannot be used elsewhere." "Cannot be used elsewhere" is where embedding in ebooks or in a PDF or delivering a file to a printer like CreateSpace comes into play. More info straight from Microsoft's mouth at this link: Embedding fonts in Office documentsOpenType fonts were created by Microsoft and Adobe years ago to combat Apple's superior typography. I have thousands of OpenType fonts which come with CorelDraw and the font bundles I purchased years ago from Adobe. If your Adobe fonts properties for embedding has Preview & Print: A font with an embedding permission of Preview & Print allows the font, either fully or as a subset, to be embedded in an electronic document solely for the purpose of viewing that document on screen and/or printing that document. While a font with a Preview & Print embedding permission (either through data in the font file or the font’s license agreement) may be embedded in an electronic document, the embedded font may not be used to further edit the document it is contained in or to edit or create other documents. Most fonts in the Adobe Type Library are set for Preview & Print embedding. Perform the same Property steps for OpenType fonts and check the permissions for embedding. Adobe has two links explaining their fonts and permissions. The general overview. and the Adobe list of their fonts and the permissions for each font is here.
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Post by Nathaniel Phillips on Oct 8, 2012 16:30:16 GMT -8
If you are using Windows, you can download the Microsoft Font Properties Extension. With the extension installed, when you right-click on a font and select Properties from the menu, you get a lot more detail about the font. It can be downloaded here: www.microsoft.com/typography/truetypeproperty21.mspxScroll down to the bottom of the page for the download instructions and link.
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pumpkinkween
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Post by pumpkinkween on Oct 14, 2012 17:28:18 GMT -8
thx guys I'll look into it.
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pumpkinkween
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Post by pumpkinkween on Oct 14, 2012 17:43:20 GMT -8
Oh wow, that font properties extension is awesome... why didn't they just have it preinstalled on our computers? lol. THANKS NATHANIEL! *sigh* now I must reeeeead licenses and embedding... blah, blah, boring, blah.
On a side note, I got a response from smashwords where I asked them if they had purchased a license allowing their members the use of those three fonts, since it is force converted and not our doing. The response: "I can't answer that because I'm not sure. I would go ahead and purchase one just to be on the safe side.". Hmmm. Yeeeah.
Sorry if I'm over obsessive about this whole font issue. I worked for websites for years and saw a lot of friends/coworkers get into trouble over copyright issues, so I've learned to research it all ahead of time. Trust me, copyright infringement lawsuits are not something you ever want to be involved in. And btw, while I'm on the subject, if you DO decide to use a font that you download online, even if it has a license attatched, still research it some more because there are font piraters that redistribute fonts that aren't theirs. Go to websites listed, search the fonts etc., if you find that same font with a different author, don't use it.
Thanks for all of your help, I really do appreciate it.
Take care. God Bless.
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Stephanie
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Post by Stephanie on Oct 15, 2012 6:57:05 GMT -8
Wow! This is a really interesting topic and I am trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. I may be in need of more coffee before allowing random thoughts to spew out of my brain...(let's all blame it on my lack of coffee if I sound incoherent!)
Here is another example of commercial use of a font - I set up a Facebook author page which ultimately has a commercial purpose. My thoughts are that since FB is hosting that site, they would be the ones required to obtain a license for font usage; that I would not be required to license the fonts used by their program. Smashwords, as the host of a site for use by others where the font is not determined by the user, in my opinion, is where a licensing requirement would fall, unless, they too are just users of the retailer sites who further determine the fonts that will be seen by consumers. I also suspect that this would already be a very well-known issue within the indie community if it were an issue. I don't see the need to pay for a font if the font I use to create my document is altered anyway up the ladder and throughout distribution. I am simply using a program (for which I purchased a license to use) to "code" my thoughts in a manner that can be communicated to, and read by, other machines - the font itself is irrelevant.
There are so many examples of people using the fonts that came with their licensed program for commercial purposes with no thought regarding licensing the font before they do so... If I print up business cards or flyers? If I set up a web site through a host? If I send email? Yes, interesting topic indeed...
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Stephanie
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Post by Stephanie on Oct 15, 2012 7:02:13 GMT -8
*she sheepishly walks to the coffee pot to fill her mug after her sleepy eyes re-read Ted's comments above regarding "redistribution of the font"*
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sully
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Post by sully on Oct 18, 2012 19:18:57 GMT -8
Wow! This really opens up a can of worms. Maybe the fonts used in ebooks are o k. But it has been pointed out that companies that publish print books like Createspace and Lulu might not be out of the woods. I have been using Lulu for a number of years and have several books out on the market.
Lulu also likes certain fonts like New Times Roman and Arial. But then again, Lulu and Createspace have been around a long time and no one has been sued yet--that I've heard of.
Also, there is Paint that comes with Windows. I use public domain Images for my covers and dress them up with Paint. Paint has a wide variety of fonts, and I always select the font that goes with my cover. I would suppose that's something to sleep on, too (or not sleep.)
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Post by Ted on Oct 19, 2012 7:36:15 GMT -8
The problem for many authors is that they are using the MS Office (or MS Word) Home/Student or Military version. These versions are for non-commercial use, as clearly state in the MS End User license and on every document/file.
So even if a font you want to use indicates it's fine for embedding - for CreateSpace or Lulu for example - the Office/Word program you used isn't for commercial use.
Is there much likelihood of an author being sued? I guess it depends on how popular your works are and if the damages awarded are worth suing you.
My income isn't anywhere near the JK Rowlings level, so I'm not worried. I use LibreOffice for uploading my works, the only problem is you can't embed fonts with the current version of LO or OO, so I'm not using MSWord for commercial purposes.
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pumpkinkween
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Post by pumpkinkween on Nov 5, 2012 6:06:37 GMT -8
Wow! This is a really interesting topic and I am trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. I may be in need of more coffee before allowing random thoughts to spew out of my brain...(let's all blame it on my lack of coffee if I sound incoherent!) Here is another example of commercial use of a font - I set up a Facebook author page which ultimately has a commercial purpose. My thoughts are that since FB is hosting that site, they would be the ones required to obtain a license for font usage; that I would not be required to license the fonts used by their program. Smashwords, as the host of a site for use by others where the font is not determined by the user, in my opinion, is where a licensing requirement would fall, unless, they too are just users of the retailer sites who further determine the fonts that will be seen by consumers. I also suspect that this would already be a very well-known issue within the indie community if it were an issue. I don't see the need to pay for a font if the font I use to create my document is altered anyway up the ladder and throughout distribution. I am simply using a program (for which I purchased a license to use) to "code" my thoughts in a manner that can be communicated to, and read by, other machines - the font itself is irrelevant. There are so many examples of people using the fonts that came with their licensed program for commercial purposes with no thought regarding licensing the font before they do so... If I print up business cards or flyers? If I set up a web site through a host? If I send email? Yes, interesting topic indeed... I'm sorry if this post doesn't make much sense... It's 6 a.m. and I haven't slept yet. As far as Facebook goes, I believe on your part, you wouldn't be considered as using a font commercial on their site if you aren't benefiting financially from the site. I may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time.. or the last), but I believe THAT, and distributing the fonts is when you would be legally required to purchase a license. As for Facebook themselves, I am sure they have all proper licenses needed to cover themselves because after all of the litigation they've been through, they probably don't want to be back in a courtroom anytime soon ... besides, they have the money to purchase these darn licenses, we don't . Now as for distributing fonts, anytime you create a document in Microsoft office or openoffice the font that you use is embedded in that document sooo when you send that file to smashwords, you are distributing that font file because it is included within that .doc file.
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pumpkinkween
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Post by pumpkinkween on Nov 5, 2012 6:34:51 GMT -8
The problem for many authors is that they are using the MS Office (or MS Word) Home/Student or Military version. These versions are for non-commercial use, as clearly state in the MS End User license and on every document/file. So even if a font you want to use indicates it's fine for embedding - for CreateSpace or Lulu for example - the Office/Word program you used isn't for commercial use. Is there much likelihood of an author being sued? I guess it depends on how popular your works are and if the damages awarded are worth suing you. My income isn't anywhere near the JK Rowlings level, so I'm not worried. I use LibreOffice for uploading my works, the only problem is you can't embed fonts with the current version of LO or OO, so I'm not using MSWord for commercial purposes. Before I start, I'm sorry if this post if confusing... I'm half asleep Good points. I had thought about the MS office problem before. I have the pre-installed version of MS office on my computer which is not for commercial use which is why I started using Openoffice instead. My income isn't anywhere near JK Rowlings either lol.. very good point. But I hope to one day have a good income rolling in and if that happens, and the font creators take notice of my fonts, they could sue me for past distributions. As of right now it wouldn't be worth it for a company sue me for damages but they may just decide to make an example of me. Also, google "sued over font use" or something similar, companies DO get sued over font usage (we are a business/company since we are self employed authors). Would we get sued? It's not worth it for these companies to sue over damages for a single person, but who knows, they may just decide to. My point is, it COULD happen. Legally, if you distribute on smashwords without a first purchasing a license (if you are using a font that does not allow commercial use and distribution of their font), you are breaking the law and are leaving yourself open to having charges brought up against you. Please don't trust random people who you don't even know that are telling you that it is okay to use a font, look into it yourself. We can have a million suggestions and tell you this and that and whatever and whatnot, but at the end of the day, you and you alone are responsible. If in doubt, contact the creator of the font and if they say it is okay to use the font commercially for the use in a ebook/book etc, keep that letter, email or whatever as proof. I didn't start this post to irritate anyone or to make people panic, I just wanted people to be aware of the issue. I personally believe that it should be something that smashwords should take care of for their authors, especially since they are the ones setting the rules about what fonts our works are ultimately being sent to retailer in since meatgrinder is currently unable to convert in most fonts (except in pdf and rtf which will keep whatever font the document has originally). I hope that people see this and contact smashwords themselves because as of right now, it's just me bringing this up to them and so far, it doesn't seem to be of much importance to them but if more people contacted them and asked them to do something about this, they would have to listen, especially if people stopped using them out of fear of copyright laws.
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